Digital Builder
Digital Builder

Episode 19 · 4 months ago

Augmented Reality (AR) & Virtual Reality (VR) in Construction


Augmented reality (AR) and virtual reality (VR) have come a long way in a short amount of time. In fact, you might not even be aware of the wide range of potential applications they have in the construction industry.

Broadly speaking, these tools can assist builders and owners alike at every stage of the project life cycle and ensure that the final product matches the initial vision.

Want to know more?

Angel Say, CEO and Co-Founder of Resolve, and Dr. Mani Golparvar, CTO and Co-Founder of Reconstruct Inc., join the show to explain what is possible with AR and VR in construction.

Topics covered:

How AR and VR have evolved and the technology has improved

Where these tools fit in to the project lifecycle

Getting started with AR and VR yourself

Potential advances in the technology coming in the next five years

Digital Builder is hosted by Eric Thomas of Autodesk.

Hear more episodes like this one by subscribing to Digital Builder on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Can’t see the links? Just search for Digital Builder in your favorite podcast player.

Hello everyone you're listening todigital builder. A podcast brought to you by autodesk. Made for constructionprofessionals who want to hear from those on the forefront of constructiontechnology. If you're looking for conversation centered around where theindustry is going this podcast is for you. Each episode will feature aconversation with a construction industry leader. Together we'll dig inon themes related to connected construction and discuss where thefuture of the construction industry is headed. Now let's get started. Helloeveryone and welcome to episode 19 of digital builder. I'm your host, ericthomas. This week will be discussing augmented reality or a our virtualreality or VR and how they're used in construction to help tell the story.I'm joined by Dr Monteagle part of our the CTO and co founder of reconstructand Angels say the co founder and Ceo of resolve in addition to his role as C.T. O. Monte is an associate professor of civil engineering, computer scienceand technology entrepreneurship at the University of Illinois. His research oncomputer vision and construction management led to co foundingreconstruct, a company that creates reality models from photos and 3 60videos and integrates them with bim models and project schedules. An angelbefore his role as Ceo has had an exciting history with virtual realitystarting in 2000 and 14 when he won the Techcrunch disrupt hackathon in newyork city with the VR Hack for visualizing the impact of newdevelopments in cities, pulling him firmly into the world of immersive techin the built environment. In 2015, Angel and his co founder were part of yCombinator, a Silicon Valley startup incubator. And last year the teamslaunched resolve a collaborative VR platform for reviewing three D modelson easy to use virtual reality tech. So needless to say we've got someimpressive guests on the show today to get to the bottom of a AR and VR andthe construction industry. Thanks for joining me on the show gentlemen, Ireally appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us erIC. Firstoff today we're going to jump right into the what and why behind a AR andVR to better understand the technology and how it's used on the job site. Fromthere, we'll find out how you out there listening can easily get started usingthese tools yourselves. But before we narrow our focus to the constructionindustry specifically, I want to define what we're referring to with the termsaugmented reality and virtual reality. Angel, can you walk us through theseconcepts? Yeah, sure. I'd be happy to. I think when when I think about thesetwo technologies and what they represent it really boils down to bitsand atoms to get low level here bits meaning, you know, those ones and zerosin computers and then atoms being the building blocks of the physical world.If we're talking about virtual reality or VR, it's all about full immersionmeaning. You've got a device on your head possibly that is using sensors anda computer to hijack your senses and make you believe you're somewhere otherthan let's say your home office. And it's because it's completely virtual,it gives you these superpowers and lets you um you know you don't have to obeythe laws of physics which have its benefits that I think we'll touch ontoday as an example of what I could do and I could put on a headset andteleport from my home office to hawaii, let's say, or an unbuilt building for amore relevant example, that's with VR with augmented reality or A. R. It'sabout augmenting the world around you meaning you're taking bits and you'reoverlaying them on the atoms in front of you and so that could be metadataabout pipes that you're looking at or it could be, hey I want to bring apiece of equipment into my home office so that when I get to the site I knowwhat I'm dealing with. I think that that's how I think about VR near andyou've really touched on my next question then is how do we tie thisback to the construction world specifically? Yeah I think again usingthe bits and atoms metaphor here. Both technologies really blend the worlds ofbits in which technology, construction technology like bim exists and thephysical world of atoms which is where the actual construction and operationsare happening. And so with these two technologies you get those two worldsinterfacing in different ways and that's very good because it starts tobreak down silos that exist in the industry today. Angel actually touchedon definitions of V. R. And A. Are really well, I've had the opportunityof working on a are related technologies for the past five yearsand my perspective on the nature of these technologies have evolved inearlier days. It was all about augmenting someone's view live. But forall kinds of practical reasons we realize that you can also augment anyform of reality capture data if you have access to a static image, a flatimage from a cell phone device. If it's a 3 60 photo has been taken on theconstruction site or if you have access... videos that are being provided fromjob sites and your augmenting that with planning information from the job site.That's a form factor of A. R. We're augmenting that version of the realitythat physical ward has been captured via reality captured. And we areoffering that interface to design plan data. I appreciate that clarificationand to be honest, my perception was mostly in in the former where it's likelive in the moment with the headset on. And so I that's pretty neat to reallyhighlight that. It's not always in the moment, you can step back and reallydig in However, you're leveraging the technology and these tools sometimesreally feel like science fiction even though we're clearly already using them.And with that said, are there any common myths or misconceptions that weshould debunk before we really get into the how in the construction industrymonty. I'd really like to hear what comes to mind for you first. Yes. Soperceptions especially around a our has been based on what folks are saying inHollywood movies, the fact that you will be able to visualize all kinds ofinformation at the right point in time. But there's a lot of details rightthere, meaning the ability to host up to date information on the device, theability to be able to provide and filter that data as a function of whatis it that you're looking at and being able to render that life with no delayof rendering are some of the key elements that there's somemisconceptions around them. Folks expect that things that they've seenare things that are really readily available, which is not the case. Angel,Do you have any thoughts, any common myths that you like to debunk when youstart jumping into this technology? Yeah, quite a few. But I think whatwhat Monty said was really interesting. You know, people always talk aboutminority report is that quintessential example of augmented reality and youknow, like swiping through things in the air. We're quite a ways away fromthat. It looks a little different today in terms of misconceptions, there'sanother type of misconception that I often see which is from people whotried the tech even five years ago, the tech is rapidly evolving and sosometimes people tried it five even four years ago and it's come such along way that they had a certain type of experience back then and they thinkoh well you know, it's still the way it was back then, some of that could bethat you still need a huge computer and cables everywhere to power this sort ofthing. And it's really only like the bim or the VdC experts who can use it.That's not the case now you have on the VR side headsets that are under $500which is the cost of a tablet that anybody can unbox and you know, jumpinto a virtual environment on their own with minimal help. And that starts toreally democratize the use of the technology with it I think is reallyimportant and it's an inflection point that we're at, so one commonmisconception that's more industry specific is that the RNA are are goingto help them and BDC teams the most and I think it's quite the opposite becausebim and BDC teams spend so much time in three D tools like Rabbit or noviceworks. They're actually pretty good at what they do, They're really good withthree D controls and it's actually some of the less technical end users whostand to benefit the most from V. R. And A R but they might not know itright. And they're not that they're not the tech forward ones, they're not theones asking for VR but once you get it into their hands, they they love it. SoI think that that's one of the huge misconceptions like, oh, br and Air isjust it's just for the techie, it's not, you're right, it's V R A R and evenbeyond anything that comes to technology, there's always thatperception that anyone who is in the VDC departments are the folks thatshould be interacting with that technology and everything else is forsuperintendents, project managers, executives and so on and so forth. WhenI think of the hardware angel, you mentioned something, I'm thinking backto the the virtual boy in the nineties, that that very faux VR thing that ifyou put your head or put your eyes up into it, it just made you nauseous anddizzy instead of giving you a pleasant immersive environment, which whichleads directly into my next question actually, and I'd like to pitch it toyou since you had some interesting insight there is what what does thathardware for a RVR really look like? Is it all headsets and motion controllersand I'm thinking about our listeners who might not have ever seen one. Orlike you said, we're using the Tech five or 10 years ago and don't have asense for like what this really looks like now. Yeah, it comes in variousshapes and sizes right? If we start with VR I mean I would classify it asbeing a headset based technology but it's not it's not a crazy setup anymore.Everything you need comes in a box these days. It's a headset that goesover your head with two lenses and display behind those lenses which asyou move your head around, that display mimics the movement of your head. Andit comes with two hand controllers as well so that you can interact with theworld. You can take measurements, you...

...can do sketches or you know do adancing game on the gaming side of things. But there's also the movetowards experimenting with technology like hand tracking so that you can haveyou know more natural maybe closer to that minority report style type ofaugmented reality we were talking about earlier. So it's it's experimental. Butthese days, yeah, in a box you get a headset and two controllers on the airside of things. It's a little different. Yes, there are headsets like Poland'sor magically. But there are also phone based augmented reality where you canhold your phone up, you know, overlay information on the physical world infront of you. And that's why you start to see devices like the iphone havemore sophisticated sensors like light are so that it can do that sensing ofyour environment. That's correct impressive to me. That like the iphonehas that light, our scanner in it and you can just go out and get a prettyaccurate scan from a tool that almost everybody has in their pocket nowcompared to, you know, the depth of what that process looks like. You know,even just a few years ago, That's interesting one. You know, we get thatcomment literally on a daily basis because we in the business ofgenerating reality models from images and videos. And the question is can Itap into that lighter sensor that comes with an iphone 12 device? Or can I tapinto that sense of that comes with an ipad device? And you know, there's somescience and there's some art associate with responding to that answer. Andwhat I mean by that is, you know, we tend to look into this issue from anend to end perspective, I try to imagine, you know, someone who is onthe job side wanting to use this technology, there's an element ofcarrying a hardware, there is an element of performing a capture withthe device then being able to benefit from that data. So it's an entire intoan experience when it comes to iphone and type of sensors you have on thesedevices. There's a limited range that is typically associate with thesedevices so you have to keep your camera pretty close to structure to even getinto the resolution that is prescribed by the specification of the device. Theother aspect is that you're always bound to feel the view of the device.Right? So we're gonna do a complete capture. You have to make sure thatyou're capturing whatever is in front of you, whatever is in top bottom left,right, simultaneous si there's an element of what we call simultaneouslocalization and mapping technique that runs on these devices which clearlystitches these scans that are being performed over time. If you move thedevice really fast there's a possibility that the tracking wouldfail. So there's an element of entertaining the associate with howfast you can move the device and there's also a limited amount of memoryyou have on that device. So these kind of captures are great for small focusreality mapping need and then tend to be on the lower side of resolution. Idon't want to use the word accuracy, resolution meaning unit of measure perpixel that is being captured with the device and you know, in that end to endexperience there's something workflows that they would be really beneficial.But beyond that there are alternatives. For example, if you want to do a quickcapture, maybe you want to go with a 3 60 video that can minimize time spenton the field and getting to the model that can be the baseline for that. Ourexperience that is desired. So different ways of leveraging that typeof sensor on an iphone device. It's really cool to hear just how widespreadthis this tech can be and I appreciate the level set on just what the iphoneis capable of. I'm thinking back to the last G C that I worked at and the mainthing we ever used a R M V R four was simply in the bid and proposal process.We model the customers potential building and you show them you go, hey,you want to walk around your HQ that we're going to build for you. This isreally cool and it was a neat concept, but that's kind of where thatconversation stopped and it just sounds very clear that the breath of what wecan do is far wider than the capabilities in the past five years agothat you guys were alluding to monte. I think what you were just sharing nicelyleads into my next question that I'd like to send your direction and when welast spoke about a AR and VR specifically you were talking about howclosely tied to artificial intelligence these are. Could you tell us a littlebit more about that connection and how it impacts the workflows on aconstruction project? Absolutely. I think part of our conversation waswhether the more modern trends of technology that are going to becomplementary to the capability of a are, but if you want to stay on a r I'dbe happy to break it down into a few parts with every our capability, one ofthe most foundational aspect is finding location of the user and ability to mapthe scene if you don't have a map of the scene, if you can find where theuser's position is with respect to that map. There is no basis for argument inthat view with virtual information, like the ones that Angel was referringto. So that ability of mapping and localization is key and the number ofartificial intelligence driven capabilities that been around for quitesome time, we don't necessarily label them as A I in the context ofconstruction technology, you know, in the old fashioned way of thinking aboutis an extension of photograph Matori techniques and the more modern terms itwill be computer vision, which is a branch within A I. And that means theability to automatically identify features, things that are interestingto be captured in images and video...

...frames. Find a way we can match themacross many frames of video if you're walking around life and then being ableto triangulate the position that three dimensional scene so we can generate abasis for even augmenting that view. Then while we're creating this mappingcapability, we always have to identify location and view point of the cameraagainst that. There's another aspect of being able to perform what we callimage based localization against that map. Now, whether you want to run thislife, whether you want to run this a synchronously against the data has beencaptured different ways of others saying that and there are bits andpieces of Ai capability. Now when you get into indoors, that detection andtracking capability, there's a lot of room for improvement. And one of theareas that is pretty modern these days is to tap into deep learning techniquesto improve the way features are being detected and matched as the basis ofmaking these systems that are the basis of augmented reality more reliable. Sothe many bits and pieces on the A. R. Piece of it. But the interesting partis with the construction companies. I mean you're not necessarily always ainterest in understanding the details we treat a are more of a black box.Right. The ability that your argument in someone's view, someone's image orvideo frame with data. The question is, what can I do with that data And I wantto start touching on some of the construction use cases the moment thatyou have design mapped against the reality, you're minding goes intocommunication and coordination. Some of the basics that we have in construction.Right. If your superintendent probably want to make sure that that model isbeing color coded based on trade responsibility. What is it that everycontract has to be working on? If I can argument that view with elements beingcalled accorded for a company, a company B I can minimize that time thatis spending coordinating the work. If I'm about to perform a constructioncoordination. I have all the former with me on the site, I can haveeveryone looking to one consistent view and we can sort of play that animationin front of everyone. So we understand the sequence of traits as it relates toour looking at plan. If it's an element of quality control, depending on howrich your design model is, you can contrast that design against thereality. So that would be another sort of uh use case. Now within every singleone of these four close, there's an element of a I that can be done forexample, in the first piece is an ability to contrast the plan scheduleplus the design against the picture which You know in early days when Iused to work on it. I've been working on this problem for about 15 years. Itwas more the future for the work. But you'd be surprised. We do have ownersand contractors that are requiring us these capabilities today in 2021 whichis great. The other pieces, can I automatically perform pre placement ofconcrete quality control. Can I find spacing of the rebar. Can I checkconduit embedment openings, all that to be measured automatically for them? Andof course, when you have pictures as a construction person, your mindimmediately goes into safety without be able to automatically check ppcompliance. Can I understand activities of the worker and check them againstsome of the safety regulation from an emotional perspective. So these aresome of the areas that ai would benefit from combination of having realitycapture data versus design. Now if that's in the context of argumentreality a little bit more complicated because competition may need to haveanother device but we can discuss that too. It's so interesting hearing youunpack how in depth all these texts can be as far as what the A I can do incombination with the augmented reality. We had a great episode some weeks backfocused on safety specifically. And we unpacked a lot of these reallyinteresting points and I think the concept that comes up and I always liketo re emphasize when we're talking about A. I. And automation is peopleshouldn't be afraid of this type of technology because it's augmentingthings that were not able to do so well and making them better or doing them ata scale that a human just simply can't do. Like I couldn't review 2000photographs from a project site and check them all for safety compliance.Obviously a computer can do that. And so you're just improving and allowinghumans to do what humans do best, especially with the labor shortagesthat are industries are aggressively dealing with right now. Yeah, I thinkthe way you put it was was spot on. Right. Which is that all of thesetechnologies A R. V. R. AI. It really is augmenting people's workflowsbecause especially construction has already moved towards having so muchrich data in in bim which they're using to coordinate to produce drawings,there's so much data there that can be leveraged for so many other use cases.But for some people like the barrier to actually engaging with that data is sohigh that if we can use some of this tech to make it easier for them. Yeahyou unlock so much more productivity for them. If I mean this is an Ai butyou know like like a takeoff right? It just gives you a simple list ofquantities and that data was all there. Well imagine all these other likequestions that people are asking the like where the answer is in the data inthese bin files, just developers and...

...companies have to work on on solvingthese problems with either A I A R V. R. But the point is like at the court isso much rich data that we can feed to these technologies to help people moreproductive. Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head for me there becauseas I think about this so many of autodesk customers and industry peoplethat I speak to are often experiencing kind of a state of decision paralysisaround how they manage their data because there's so much and it's it'swhy I really appreciate conversations like the one we're having right nowbecause you're applying some very clear expectations on how you can manage thatdata and where we'll get started and we'll talk about that a bit in a littlebit in the episode but I know we've we've covered the pre construction andconstruction phases of the project life cycle a bit and I'd like to talk aboutowners specifically for a minute and I'd like to learn more about how techfocused owners are leveraging a AR and VR or should be leveraging a AR and VRduring the handover in facilities operations phases, monty. Do you haveany thoughts there on the term? Digital twin is obviously coming up as we thinkabout this type of tech to Absolutely, I'd like to see if Angel can go firstto speak about VR because of er is actually a piece that owners wouldprobably start in earlier phases of a project. Lifecycle will be happy totouch on it from an HR perspective for sure. Yeah, totally. So speaking on onthe VR from speaking from experience with VR, I really do think it impactsthe efficiency of the building after construction a lot Right. ErIC youmentioned earlier, your A C tends to use VR a lot for forbids and marketinghas its place for that. Sure, but for owners it has the ability to get thepeople who will be inheriting the building, the operators that end usersto review these design and construction files a lot earlier and you know, kindof tying it back to that metaphor bits and atoms moving bits around becausethose are a lot cheaper and a lot safer to manipulate than, oh we alreadyinstalled it. We've got to rip it off the wall and fix it or we've got tolive with the inefficiency And we get owners tell us all the time right, thatwhen they're using VR, they basically get 10 times more comments on theirdesign and construction models than the alternative, which is somebody screensharing a three D. Model with them and then someone trying to basicallybackseat drive where they're like, can you zoom in on that thing over there ormove a little to the left, which just describing it. I think you get a sensefor how, how inefficient and frustrating a meeting like that can be.But with VR, you can just say to the team, hey, we've got a two week windowgo in, look for accessibility issues, look for safety risks and leavecomments on that and do that a synchronously so that we don't have tomeet up and then align our schedules and then we'll look at those commentstogether and see what we can do to actually impact the cost of ownership,which for owners is really important because yeah, cutting down on Capex andmaking sure you don't have change orders is critical. But if you'rebuilding data centers or an energy facility or pharma, plant Downtime,efficiency and safety are really, really critical and you want to makesure you get that stuff right. So I think with all the technology we'retalking about, it's about trying to increase confidence in the in the finalproduct which is the facility that the owner will eventually operate. You justtouched on some of the few very interesting aspect of issues that youknow, owners are facing and the benefits also want to reflect on thisif you don't mind, you know, if you think about the project life cycle,every project starts with the need right? There's an owner who has someneed and that need needs to be translated to some programmingdocuments to be translated to design documents. Then we had it up to thecontractor to build it. One of the foundational challenges that we'vealways had in construction is this loss of information and how that owner isinterpreting what they have in mind to the designer design is trying to dotheir best to capture that intent. And then of course that information getspassed on to the construction company and all these tools that we'vegenerated over time including even our fi as a process has been because ofthis information loss that we've had in the process. Right? So if you thinkabout the RNA are from my perspective in the face of the project, it reallyprovides that opportunity for the owner to see the end product with the levelof detail that matters to them to be able to guarantee that vision that theyhave in mind is something that can be achieved. So in lot of project pursuitsand a lot of even marketing opportunities, A lot of designengineering firms have a desire of tapping into these technologies to makesure that the owner sees the quality of the design quality deliverables thatthey're getting from that perspective. Now when you hand it off to theconstruction team, you want to make sure that that evolution of design iscomplete to, it's something that you know, dominantly engineeringconstruction people would be rallying around all of these products when youstart generating a design model from early days and maturing that based onconcepts like level of development...

...promoted discipline as an owner, youwant to be engaged in that process because you want to make sure that youcan provide a clear handoff between what the designers achieving versuswhat the construction company would receive as a starting point for. Butit's cost estimation whether you already have a formal bidding processwhatever that is and then it comes construct ability. If you have afacility that you know, it's part of a larger campus. Like some of theexamples that Angel mentioned even data centers, you might want to make surethat you understand the impact of your new design and the sequence ofconstruction as a function of other operations that are happening on yoursite. You know, we have an opportunity for example to work with fighter andfighter is a great company is bringing vaccines and if you're working withPfizer, you have no opportunity to make any mistake. The project needs to be ontime on budget and we have to make sure that the technology supports thatprocess to So in the context of that, being able to demonstrate thatconstruct ability plan, that logistic sequencing plans to the owner so theycan provide a clear handoff between construction documentation to contract.It would be really beneficial and as you start mapping the suddenconstruction phase, one of the biggest pain points of contractors paymentapplications, everyone wants to be paid on time. Many of our projects arerunning in cost plus contract forms. That means we're all paying for theproject is beginning reimbursed. Nobody wants to be delayed on thatreimbursement and we know the delays that are happening to three months formany of ourselves so we can provide the owner with an opportunity to verify thework however that's possible by contrasting the scope of the work thatwas promised to them from that sort of er model versus the reality that we'relooking at yet another opportunity to make sure owners are benefiting from itAnd to your question erIC earlier about digital twins, that's really that hasbeen documentation hand off to the owner. Now you've provided a version ofthe truth of what really happened throughout the construction phase. Thatcan be used for liability purposes and can be augmented by sensor data can beused as a base of operation and maintenance. I love that framing on thedigital twin piece as well. And we had a recent episode focused on that topicto so anybody out there listening tune back a couple episodes and you hear usopine away about that. But it's, it's encouraging to hear that more owners,not all of them, but more of them are starting to be more forward thinkingabout how they capture their data and a little bit more prescriptive at thebeginning of what they're starting at that are of peace stage to say, hey, Iwant x at the end of my project, make sure you do y and z to ensure that Iget it. So they're, they're more involved. It's not just cool. You guysare done building our project, here's a pile full of binders and cd ROMs. Goodluck with your, you know, turnover packages when you, you know, have awater leak and got to open up that wall. So it's, it's a different conversationand the technology is really getting to a point now or we can support it in away that doesn't feel so obtrusive. Yeah, I think I want to just elaborateon what you said, which is that, you know, after turnover then we hear froma lot of owners, them assets end up on hard drives, right? And like they don't,they don't get touched until maybe you need them and hand them off to a newengineer contractor working on a retrofit. But there's so much valuethat you can be tapping into even even after construction. And I think we are,we've seen it starts to open up some interesting use cases, especially forowners because a lot of when we talk to the owner, when we say owners, it's abit of an overloaded term, right? I guess when I'm referring to owners, I'mthinking the operations teams, their their security teams, right? The peoplerunning their facilities, their core competency is not to know how to useRabbit and now his works. And so these bim assets really are just okay, great.Like there's these files don't quite know how to open them, But with VR puton a headset, you're walking through this bin file, that's like 1-1 withwhat these operators are used to doing on site and so they can start toleverage that asset for procedure simulations, onboarding of newemployees in the world of remote, you know, making sure people know what asight looks like before they visit. And so you really start to multiply the R.O. I have been beyond the construction lifecycle, which I think is really,really exciting. And that comes back to your earlier statement of on theconstruction side of things, bringing these technologies beyond just the VDCteam too. So it's, there's an education conversation of, you know, these thesearen't hard things to leverage if you do X, Y, z, and then also just gettingthe tools and everybody's hands and letting them all know that they'rethere. So I think we've highlighted what a AR and VR are all about andwe've really unpacked with the technology is being used for on the jobsite, which I'm really appreciative of. I'd like to pivot now and focus on thehow I'm hearing a theme from both of you, that this tech is fairlystraightforward to use, which I'm really happy to hear. And that might bea surprise to some of the listeners. So how can an eager non technologist outthere listening, especially somebody,... we mentioned a moment ago withoutthat snazzy Vdc team to partner with, Get started using a AR and VR like,what's there? I'm going to start now because I listen to this podcast andthis sounds awesome. Like what should they do, Angel, I'll kick it to you onthis one. Okay. I think the first thing and the most important is to make surethat you understand the exact problem that you're trying to solve right? Likeall this technology. Really exciting. Really cool. Hopefully we're hyping itup on this podcast, but you've also at the end of the day, you have to makesure you know what you're doing with it, you have a plan, you have, you know,the end users in mind and then you can start looking into okay, you know whatVR headset do I want, what technology and software do I want to run with itAnd thankfully that stuff has gotten a lot easier. Um so after you know whatyou want to do with the tech, you then the second most important step is goodand get people VR headsets, you know when I think about back to the earlierquestion about misconceptions. One of the things I hear a lot about a mistakethat I see a lot of people make is well we're gonna buy one headset or just twoheadsets and let everybody share it one in today's world, it's not too sanitaryto be sharing something on your face but to it's a lot more empowering ifyou can buy a headset and assign it to someone, even if it's just for thelength of the project because then when they have 20 minutes or 30 minutes toreview the model, they can jump in and do it. As opposed to having to go andcheck it out from the I. T. Or the BMR BDC team because that's intimidatingand it also just adds friction and if you're thinking okay well I can'tafford a headset for everyone. The good news is it's also gotten a lot moreaffordable. I alluded to, you know the lower cost of headsets earlier on theVR side devices like the Oculus Quest which are $300 off the shelf. You canorder it off of any local retailer amazon so that's it. Like you've got tomake sure you've got equipment for your stakeholders so that they can go in andactually start to reap those benefits. And then you pick up a tool that canleverage your existing bim assets or common data environment like in 3 60 tomake the actual process of getting data into your tool as easy as possiblemoney. Do you have any thoughts on that? Any tips for our listeners who arelooking to get started with these technologies? Yes, I mean ancienttouched on a really good point, you know, start with the end in mind whichis what is the problem that you want to solve and make sure that that problemgets solved when you think about the problem. It's also important to know doyou have the right setup? Do you have the right type of data that can be usedas part of whatever solution are using to address that problem? And it'salways an element of self assessment that goes there in terms of how goodhow mature our data is to be able to support this capability that we want tobring to solve that problem. So as the basis of that is an element ofassessment that needs to be done. Let's just pick been models that will be usedas basis of er and er depending on what problem you want to be solving. Youneed to make sure your files are the second rate of maturity per modeldiscipline, which is really hard to see even these days we desire to see modelsthat are chop drawing level of detail but you only see them in southern typeof projects data centers because for example electrical module happens to bea significant part part of the process and it does make sense for us evenspend a time modeling that right. Of course maturity is not just a functionof graphical representation, it's non graphical too. So it's important tomake sure they have the right type of data then the next point which I thinkit's also important to touch on is designing KPI s when you think aboutthe problem, When you think about the level of effort that it takes you toprepare the data and hopefully you already have it. And the question is,how am I going to measure the success of that data and the solution that I'mgoing to use to solve that problem And there's a little of art in coming overthe KPI S because of course everyone who is engaged in the project isinterested in making sure the project is done on time and on budget and theright quality and safety. No, you know, no, no, no concern there. But then youalso want to measure impact on personas that are using the technology to, can Isave time and can I cut out budget is being spent on certain type of activitythat superintendents are spending on and the format we know every project isunderstaffed. So if you're already overwhelming a significant amount ofwork that we do, the last thing you want to do is you want to add somethingelse that takes more effort and it chips off that productivity game youwanted to, you know, achieve off of that entire process. So designing thatKPU is really important to make sure you understand how many personas arebeing touched by that product and data and once you've mapped it out and ofcourse you have to go to a piloting. We always love to spend a lot of timeplanning planning and planning construction. Once you have theplanning place, you've got to take it to an experimentation phase pilotingthat technology and putting together a case of study ideally within thecontext of your own organization because there's an element of trust,you know, if you know, I wear my reconstruct that I'm gonna bepresenting to a solution and you're gonna see really some cool demos thatI'm going to show you on the web, but... know, you're going to reallybenefit and feel that, you know, value that the solution offers if you touchit. So there's always an opportunity that you can work with vendors indesigning however, you know, a pilot project can be formulated, engage yourteams. So they would help you measure you know, performance against its KPI Sonce you have that cases study formulated you can start sharing thatand use that is in the internal sales tools in your organization to bring itup to speed. There's also another thing that needs to be done at the companylevel which is you know, a self assessment at the company in terms ofmaturity of leveraging, technology driven workflows and every company,every organization is at a different level in their journey toward you wantto call it a I driven solutions, Ai driven solutions, every type oftechnology and that self assessment is important. There are teams that arehigh performing and their teams that need more support. So mapping it out isimportant to make sure not only can demonstrate the value, but you knowwhere the start point is for each team and what that ultimate, you know,problem solving approach looks like for them. I appreciate that context toobecause like a billion dollar general contractors journey into adopting thistype of technology is going to be wildly different than the $20 million G.C. That is based in the midwest or something. And so making sure thatwe're not trying to paint the same, you know, picture for every single customerand allowing them to step back and go, what am I trying to achieve? What arethe resources I have, how is it going to impact everybody and then what is itgoing to deliver at the end of the day really sets you off up for success inbringing all the stakeholders along, especially if you didn't have buy infrom everybody to begin with. And then also, as you had mentioned, making sureyour data is just in that right spot because if your data is terrible,you're gonna be jumping into VR and everything is gonna be a mess andyou're trying to work through all these workflows and the complexity there isgoing to be, I think a barrier and might actually reduce your likelihoodof getting your team to adopt it unless you've had that exploration to makesure that you're ready to adopt it at the right moment. One thing we see, Iwas going to say in terms of that data integrity, it can be overwhelming.Right? As you said, you go into VR and you see floating fire extinguishers andexit signs clip to the floor because on a two d drawing that looks fine. And soone of the things we like to warn people about is like you don't want togo into this mid project unless it's a pilot and you really scope it out right?You could overwhelm a project team if like halfway through, you're saying,hey, we're increasing our modeling standards and so thinking through andmaking sure everyone's aligned on expectations, right? Like hey, if wewant to review like accessibility of equipment, it means that the equipmenthas to be properly modeled. So that's something that we often make surepeople know going into starting to use technology. Like we are, I wanted totouch on one other aspect of this. You know, the trend that we've observed theconstruction this year over the past, Maybe five years is a lot of companieshave been bringing central innovation management teams on board and one ofthe task has been assigned to these teams is actually helped pilotingvarious types of technologies. Sometimes these things actually workreally, really well in helping project teams map out what that journey lookslike for them and coming over the framework of what these KPs look like,how you guys will be able to assess the value. So sometimes a lot of theseforces engaged in the process actually helping vendors like us or you know,technologies like us that are working on creating methods to, you know, makeit translatable usable by their own project teams. And I like to hear thattoo because it's all too common, especially with resource constrainedteams to just assume that the VDC team is going to take on the brunt of thiswithout really identifying somebody to own the process and the changes and theexploration associated with it. And so if you do have that resource to say,okay, James is the guy who's going to think through all of this and own itand define some more responsibility, you're much more likely to get adoptionof any technology, whether it's A I or V. R. Or anything else. Instead of, youknow, adding it to the pile without any real clear ownership or plan for howyou're going to move forward. So monty, you just said five years in the past.I'd like to move now five years into the future. And of course we're talkingto this futuristic technology. So I think it's worth speculating aboutwhat's gonna come next. Can we expect equally rapid improvements in a AR andVR like we've experienced in the last five years, Angel, you want to takethat first? I'll be happy to speak about. I wanted to speak about A R andA I for sure. But if you have something you want to have Yeah. In terms ofadvancements of VR, I do think we're moving at a very rapid pace. Like Isaid, we're at a very interesting inflection point in VR right now whereit's untethered, we touched on this a little bit throughout the conversation.You know, there are there are resource...

...constraints to the type of device thatyou choose Right? So earlier money was alluding to, you can go out and scanwith your phone, but you know, there's an impact on quality there, but you canalso make it even more accessible by using a 3 60 camera. If you don'tactually need a three d scan the same kind of parallels exist in VR theexciting thing for, you know, developers is that just because it'sresource constraint doesn't necessarily mean that it's impossible, right? Itjust means you might have to get clever with your approach to hey, how do wetake, you know, a fully Federated model and get it to work on these resourceconstrained devices And so the hardware is catching up, but so is the software,right? As the hardware gets better and more accessible? I think you start tosee debs realized, okay, if people can pick one of those headsets up for thatcheap, I have a wider audience there and I should be able to reach thataudience. I just have to get my software to actually work on that andthen there's other advancements right? Like in the input we talked, you know,maybe hand tracking is one way that's being experimented. One thing that wasrecently announced that I posted on on linkedin last week was some devices areexperimenting with the idea of, okay, you've got this VR headset thatcompletely, you know, covers your field of view and lets you teleport into adifferent environment, but they've got cameras for sensing your environmentand tracking your movement that can then be used to pass through thatactual environment and now you've got a device that does VR into some degree ofsome augmented reality, it's not transparent glasses, but you still getthat camera feed so that you can see, okay, you know, let me put some data onthat pipe or something along those lines with the same device that you'vebeen using for VR. So lot of exciting stuff happening, both in hardware andsoftware. And I do think it will keep evolving at a rapid pace. That shouldnot deter companies from investing though in the R and R. Now, you know,you don't you don't want to wait before it's too late. I think that the tech isat a point where it is accessible and it's not really a future technologyangel, you just made some really good point. You know, if I want to commenton the A. R side of it, there are many different parts um that you're going tosee in the next five years, but I want to, you know, take a constructionperspective to this, which is all these cities you're really taking in yourdesign plus plan information, whatever that is, the schedule of safety plan,whatever information you have, and you are matching that against the realityof the job site. What's really happening in a form that is perhapsmeasurable in a form that is mapped and, you know, a lot of things that aregoing to happen the next five years is contrasting between the two. If you canfind deviations between the design against the reality as a function ofoffering better situational awareness of folks that are on the site, um beingable to understand progress, deviations, being able to understand qualitydifferences, that needs immediate attention and of course safety over thepast 10 years and more recently, baby around 67 years with deep learningtechniques, many Ai capabilities have reached decent level of maturity thatstartup and technology companies can now really use them. So we're going tosee in the next five years there's going to be a significant amount of AIdriven solutions, especially the context of A. R. That can analyze thatreal reality, captured it with its life for static, analyzing that to inferstate of working progress. In contrast, that is the design. Of course, you know,many start up companies that are active in this space and there's onefoundational challenge. If you want to be creating these technologies, youwould need a lot of ground truth data. Of course, you can make arguments aboutvarious form factors of machine learning techniques you can use whetheryou have supervised, you want to take an unsupervised approach to trainingfor those folks a little bit more technical. But at the bottom of all ofthis is the fact that that engineering judgment is something that we really,really want to make sure that is captured properly and we can takeadvantage of that, to connect inference or whatever we do from the pictureagainst that ultimate resolution, that desire to be derived and making thatconnection is something that is more for a journey. We love to make surethat construction comedies keep their skin in the game of all thesedevelopments because they're contributing to this ecosystem of thedata being captured and used as the basis of working. You know, earlierthis year I've had the opportunity of studying a new institute of AI inconstruction. We have a little over 85 companies that engaged, we have owners,owner reps, designers, construction companies, even Vcs and you know, oneof the foundational challenges that we've tried to address is you know,sort of this transformation from idea to products and whatever you arelooking to from five year perspective are really wanna look into a 10 yearperspective. What is happening now is that we have a lot of Ai drivenproducts that are only touching on the low hanging fruit opportunity instartups and technology companies, Every company should be, everyconstruction company should be engaged with those companies to make sure theycan take something from what is being developed right now and apply that tothe job site, but they should also be involved in this ecosystem so they canprovide the real problems and have the researcher work on the foundationalcapabilities that are needed to be...

...added into a i to enable the next setof capabilities that are desired and that ecosystem and involved in theconstruction companies in the entire process actually key enabler to makesure that we can get into that five years spectrum that you're mapping heremoney and you hit on. One of my favorite things about the A. C. Andconstruction industry at large is that It's historically a very collaborativeone. Like nobody is giving up obviously their competitive advantage secrets oranything, but people are very interested in bettering the industryand sharing information where it's appropriate and to hear about thatecosystem that you're part of right now and just, you know, where I've kind ofwalked through the A. C. World in the last 10 years, it's it's just reallycool to see where we're at right now in the amount of investment that's cominginto the space and just the wide development and the tools and you bothhave made it very clear like the five year picture and tenure picture for aAR and VR is is really excellent. There's gonna be a lot of cool stuffcoming. But out there if you're listening, don't pause, please jump in.It sounds like there's some benefits to be drawn and and waiting and cleaningup your data and all those other things. It does, you know, benefit if you don'tjump in as quickly as you're able to and have the resource. So to close outthis week's episode, I have one final question that I ask every guest andit's one of my favorite things because it's it's always interesting to see thebreadth of responses that I get every week is a little bit of a surprise. Sowhat is one tool that you will always carry in your toolbox no matter whattype of project you're working on, Angel, Could you kick us off on thisone? Yeah. A lot of my projects are are software based, so I spend a lot oftime on my computer's, I'm a big fan of having a mechanical keyboard around atall time. Yeah, I I want to make sure as efficient as possible as I as I'mtyping away and sometimes uh it can get a little loud but it does just help mebe more more efficient as either I'm Like shooting off emails or writingcode. A good mechanical keyboard is key to me. Are you one of the guys thatseek out the old ones from the late 80s and early 90s? No, I'm not I'm not thatfar down the rabbit hole. I just think a good keyboard makes it makes adifference in my productivity at least it makes sense. And it's got adifferent feel to it as well. You know when you've got those very thinbluetooth ones, like the portable, they work well the rechargeable talk great.But I I'm with you the feel of that real mechanical keyboard has a big rymoney. How about you? What's your one tool that you bring to every projectyou're working on no matter what the project is. So, you know, the type of Rand D. Research that I perform does require a lot of images and videos. Ido computer vision, which is analyzing images and videos and now also wearingmy construction had I'd love to use images as a base of communication ifthere's one medium that you can use to make sure owners, designers andcontractors on the same page is everything we've discussed it. V R andA R, which is a visual. So I love to make sure they always have a camera onthe It happens to be 360 camera if it happens to be a point and shoot camera.Great. But if not, there's always a camera these days that are in yourportable devices that you're carrying and you're making calls on you be ableto talking to that for taking pictures. I like it. And what a world that we'rein now where everybody, essentially, everybody in the world has a camerawith them at all times. Like the ability to document and capture andprovide that visual image about what you're referring to are working ondefinitely goes a lot further than possibly typing out a quick email. So,yeah. Thank you for sharing. All right. So, I know both of you are working onsome really cool projects right now. Do either of you have anything you'd liketo plug or share with our listeners. Yeah. The resolve team has been hard atwork making VR reviews of complex facilities as simple as possible. Right?We've talked about a lot of the challenges today, including the size ofthe data and so we want to make sure you can use it on wireless VR devicesso that you don't need, you know, to be a BBC expected to use the technologyand you can ship out ahead, set a low cost headset to people to get feedback.So if any of the use cases or problems that we talked about today resonatedwith you as a listener, please reach out and resolve will be happy topartner with you. There's some other areas that we are also working on. Thatfolks who are listening to the podcast today might be interested in theability to automatically generate measurable reality maps out of anyimages and videos is something that we've been pushing all the boundariesthat are possible and that threat meaning From 3 60 video being able toautomatically map and generate measurable images. Being able toautomatically generate floor plan, there are many different use cases andyou might be interested in tenant improvement. You might be interested inprogress tracking might be interesting. Quality control. We love to work withyou to make sure that we are designing these solutions can accommodate forspecific needs that you have and it's...

...general Izabal so I can addresseveryone's problem as as a foundation of capability and of course the otherpart of it is being able to map these technologies in the context of yourspecific workflow. The best solutions are the ones that do not make a drasticchange in your process because we have so many people engaged in the projectand changing processes are not that easy. Of course you may make counterarguments that radical changes would happen if you change everything, butyou know, that's more for cultural, organizational issue or process relatedissues. Now bring my technologies had, it would be best if you understand whatis that process that you have in mind and make sure when we are coming upwith these solutions they can easily argument or extend your existingworkflow without making drastic changes. That would you know, show someresistance against change. It all makes sense. And for those out there who areeager to learn more directly from either of you or your partner with you.What's the best way they can reach out and connect with you angel, you canconnect with me on linked in, happy to start a conversation there and also Ialways post Cool VR and sometimes the occasional a are in construction andoperations content and if you are interested in resolve, you can alsohead to www dot resolve bim dot com and we'll get in touch Perfect. And I'mconnected with you on linkedin and I'm thankful for because you've beenposting a lot of cool stuff lately, Money, how about you? What's the bestway for our listeners to reach out if they're interested in learning a bitmore from you. Same. I do have a presence on linkedin and I'm ratheractive on linkedin. So if anybody's interested money gulp of our, you canfind easily on linkedin. I do have a presence all over the web given thenature of the work that they do, not only at reconstruct, but also throughthe university. So you can easily find me through them. But you know, if youwant some generic information, videos about various form factors of solutionsthat we're offering. W W dot reconstruct, inc dot com, you'll beable to find all these videos. All right, so this has been such afantastic conversation in one of my favorite episodes so far, both of theguests have just shared an incredible wealth of information and I feel like Iwould be empowered to jump into a RVR if I was out on a project site. So, forthose out there, still listening. Thanks again for taking the time tojoin us on this episode of digital builder. If you've got any questionsfor me or want to appear on a future episode, you can find me on linkedin orvia twitter at builder underscore digital. I'm pretty active on bothplatforms. You can also connect with us through the digital build theirhomepage, which is construction dot auto desk dot com forward slash podcastthere, you can sign up for our biweekly newsletter and suggest show topics orpotential future guests. And if you're really loving the show, please do leavea review on apple podcasts or your favorite player. It does make a bigdifference for my team. And if you can like subscribe to or share this episode,if you enjoyed it, I'd really appreciate it. And on that final note,goodbye. You've been listening to digital builder to ensure that younever miss an episode. Subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast player.If you're listening with Apple podcast, we'd love for you to give a quickrating of the show, simply tap the number of stars you think the podcastdeserves and then you're done. Thank you so much for listening. Until nexttime. Mhm.

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